The Discussion between Velio Spano and P.A. Shibayev on the Situation in the People’s Republic of China

(13th December 1949)

The account which is given here by the Italian communist Velio Spano shortly after the successful revolution in China suggests the fragility of the situation in the country and the potentialities for the restoration of capitalism. Despite the correctness of the political line of the people’s  democratic dictatorship at its first stage of development where the primary tasks were directed against imperialism and the survivals of feudalism there were necessarily weaknesses in the situation in the country. The Marxist literature of that time distinguished between two phases of People’s Democracy. The first phase was one where the dictatorship of the proletariat was advancing but still had the representatives of sections of capital and landlordism in the state power in which the immediate tasks of taking over imperialist enterprises and completing land reform were being carried out. In the second phase of people’s democracy the representatives of the non-labouring classes were to be removed from the state power and the people’s democratic state was to fulfil the functions of the dictatorship of the proletariat and embark on the construction of socialism. By 1952- 53 the tasks of the first phase were largely completed and both the CPSU(b) and the CPC envisaged the transition to the next, socialist, stage of people’s democracy.

Mao in 1952 pointed out that the main contradiction was that between the national bourgeoisie and the working people. However after March 1953 matters took a negative turn in People’s China as in much of the democratic camp. The new understanding now adopted in the People’s China was that it was unnecessary to expel the representatives of the non-labouring classes from the state organs or socialise all the instruments and means of the production under socialism. The Chinese constitution  of 1954 was declared to be an expression of the dictatorship of the proletariat, even though the parties of national capital continued to remain in the National People’s Congress and the country was said to be socialist even though huge sectors of the economy were not socialised – throughout the Mao period this continued in town and country even in the urban and rural people’s communes. Nationalised property was subordinated to the group property of the people’s communes. This represented a major departure from Marxism parallel to Khrushchev’s policy of selling the agricultural machinery of the machine tractor stations to the collective farms thereby expanding the sphere of commodity production and exchange in the economy. Such non-Marxist ‘innovations’ were given support and sanction at the 20th Congress of the CPSU by Khrushchev and the 8th Congress of the CPC by Mao in 1956. This did not mean, however, the end of democratic and revolutionary advance in China in the period 1953-1976 though it did amply indicate that People’s China was not geared to constructing a socialist society.

Velio Spano (1905-1964) was a leader of the Communist Party of Italy who was imprisoned 1928-1932 for re-establishing the illegal communist party under the fascism of Mussolini. In Paris thereafter, Velio Spano joined the illegal apparatus of the Italian Communist Party. Along with Romain Rolland, he campaigned for the release of Gramsci and the sending of an inquiry delegation to verify the conditions of political prisoners in Italian prisons. He worked on behalf of the party in France, Egypt, Spain and Tunisia frequently in underground conditions. After the liberation of Italy he was elected a member of the Politburo of the CPI, a member of the National Council for the Constituent Assembly and Undersecretary for Agriculture in the De Gasperi II Government (July 1946-January 1947). He was elected deputy for Sardinia and participated in the peasant struggles, the land occupations and the strikes of the miners in Sardinia. In 1949 he was sent by the CPI and the journal L’Unità to China in August 1949 and travelled in China between September, 1949 until early January, 1950. During his visit he was able to meet Mao, Liu Shaoqi, Zhu De, Zhou Enlai, Li Lisan, Bo Yibo, Chen Yi, Peng Zhen, Guo Moruo, Song Qingling and other leaders. Details of the visit of Velio Spano to China are available from a scholarly study by Laura De Giorgi of the Università Ca’Foscari Venezia, Italia, entitled “A Welcome Guest? A Preliminary Assessment of Velio Spano’s Journey to Mao’s China 1949- 1950" (Roads to Reconciliation People’s Republic of China, Western Europe and Italy During the Cold War Period (1949-1971) edited by Guido Samarani, Carla Meneguzzi Rostagni and Sofia Graziani, 2017, pages 177 to 195). This study refers to the meeting of Velio Spano with Pyotr Shabayev, the chargé d’affaires at the Soviet Embassy in Canton. Spano had requested this secret meeting. In early December 1949 Spano refers in his travel notes to his marginalisation, distrust, coldness and being kept at a distance by the Chinese. After his return to Italy Spano was a Deputy in the Italian parliament and fought for the recognition of the People’s Republic of China. In the Khrushchev period Velio Spano took pro-Soviet positions though he was known for his positive stands against the US military bases in Italy, particularly in Sardinia (the island in which Spano was born). In 1957 he became responsible for the Foreign Office of the CPI Central Committee, and in 1958 he was appointed Secretary of the Italian Movement for Peace.

Vijay Singh.


Top Secret

28th December 1949

Notes of the conversation between P.A. SHIBAYEV, the Charge d’Affaires of the USSR in the People’s Republic of China and VELIO SPANO, Member of the Communist Party of Italy

On 13th December 1949

With prior appointment, Spano, member of the Italian Communist Party, who had earlier requested a one on one conversation only in the presence of an absolutely reliable French interpreter, visited the Embassy.

In the very beginning of the conversation Spano stated that he had wanted to meet Com. Kovalev, but on learning that he has already left China decided then to talk to me. Spano, declared that this conversation with me is not one with a diplomat but with a member of the AUCP (b). He also stated that he will be absolutely frank with me and is here to talk as a leader of the Italian Communist Party.

Spano pointed out that he has been in China for long period of time and has visited a number of towns and villages of central and southern China and wants to share with me his impressions about the general political situation in the New China. Spano stressed that he is very concerned about the situation in the country and he wants to put these before us.

Spano said that he will attempt first to describe the facts that he has gathered during his stay in China and then summarise them.

Spano told us that that he first visited the city of Tiansin where the situation created a very bad impression on him. According to Spano, a major British company which earlier also operated in the city has remained in essence intact till the present. The only change has been that formally the company as a single large unit been broken up, but has been handed over to individual British citizens, in other words the capital continues to remain in the hands of the British. Com. Spano mentioned this fact to the functionaries of the centre who retorted that there is nothing unusual about it.

Further, Spano spoke about his stay in the town of Siu-zhou where the extraordinary battle for Nanjin was fought. Here the following fact made a very negative impression on him: the people’s detachments known as ‘the red pikes’, Spano is convinced are totally beyond the control of the communist rule and are controlled by the leaders of the landowners. They do whatever the leaders of the landowners in the city ask them to do. According to Spano those in authority do not give any importance to such a situation and consider it to be normal and of no concern.

After his stay in Siu-zhou Com. Spano lived for a while in Hankou. According to Com. Spano the situation in the city was normal and stable. The reason for this he explained lay in the fact that General Lin Biao in charge of all the affairs of the city is a fine and talented organiser and has properly managed the affairs of the city. He could not discern any negative moments in the region of Hankou.

Afterwards Spano was in Hanchan (Ziantsi province) and in Ganchou. About Ganchou Spano expressed serious apprehension and cited the fact that, contrary to what he witnessed earlier regarding the People’s Liberation Army in other regions of China, here in this region the People’s Liberation Army was very undisciplined. There has been even an incident when one of the drivers in the People’s Liberation Army refused to follow the orders of the commanding officer. Spano says such a thing he had witnessed for the first time in the People’s Liberation Army. Till this incident he had observed strict discipline in the conduct of the fighters of the People’s Liberation Army. Spano stressed that he was particularly struck by this situation as extremely fine detachments of people’s partisans consisting of revolutionary minded youth operated in this region. This relates to the 2nd Army which was once commanded by General Chen Gen. It should be noted that the General Chen Gen, though a member of the CC of the Chinese Communist Party is, according to Spano, politically not very literate and is engaged primarily with military affairs.

Com. Spano also reported that in the Ganzhou region from the conversations with leading Chinese comrades he learnt that about a thousand communists left the region for the north along with the People’s Liberation Army and 59 thousand of them stayed back. At present all of these 59 thousand are no more among the rank of the communists and no one knows how these ex communists found themselves outside the ranks of the party.

Com. Spano was also in Canton, about which he said the following: Canton is a city of 1700 thousand. Before the seizure of the city by the People’s Liberation Army there were about 60 communists who worked underground. Presently after coming to power there are only 200 communists in the city of which only 20 are from the worker class. According to Spano, the administration is headed by general Yi Tse-in who is a very talented leader and organiser. He is taking all measures in order to reorganise the economic and political life in Canton. But, unfortunately, he does not have sufficient number of cadre. He requested the central authorities to provide him with more of them from the Centre and, in Spano’s knowledge, managed to get 200 party cadre from Shanghai. However, for such a large centre as Canton where there are about a 100 thousand workers and where there is a strong English influence, these are far from being sufficient.

From Canton Spano travelled to Hanzhou. Here in his words the situation is no different than in other places. These regions were struck by crop failure and the population in this region is living under very difficult conditions. In the city of Hanzhou, someone called Liu, member of the CC, made a very favourable impression on Spano. This Liu, in Spano’s words, is the only one from amongst the leadership of the party whom he managed to meet and one who demonstrated a correct approach to questions related to workers. In his conversation with Spano he directly declared that in order to reorganise the work in the city and the countryside it is necessary to increase the number of members of the Communist Party primarily consisting of workers.

Afterwards, Spano went to Shanghai about which the Chinese comrades had spoken much as the most important political and economic centre having a large worker base and where the all the affairs are best organised. Com. Spano said that Shanghai has a strong party leadership consisting of 6 members of the central committee of the party including Chou Shu Li, the secretary of the Eastern Bureau of the CPC and general Chen Yi, the mayor of the city. In Spano’s words there are about 550 thousand workers in the city. However, as Spano observes, the numbers regarding the workers told to him vary; some say that there are 700 thousand workers in Shanghai while others say 550 thousand and some other – 450 thousand.

Spano himself thinks that the 550 thousand to be the correct figure as those who quote this data were also able to give the breakup of the workers in specific categories. Among 550 thousand workers there are only about 9 thousand communists according to Spano. Thus, Spano concludes that 6 members of the central committee with such a small number of communists would hardly be in a position to properly manage the affairs in such a large centre as Shanghai with a population of 6 million inhabitants.

After stating all of this, Spano further in the conversion noted the following general features:

1. The Chinese Communist Party has in all 4 million members. However, if we were to see where these members are located, then it turns out that most of them are in the army or they work in the apparatus, which, by the way, as in full seriousness is asserted by Spano is exclusively bureaucratic in nature. In the factories or in the countryside communists are totally absent or present in miniscule numbers.

2. In the countryside, as a consequence of taking over of the lands of the landowners and its redistribution among the middle and the poor masses, there is a rising number of new kulaks using hired labour. These kulaks are growing very fast and the hiring out workers and no measures are being taken in relation to these new kulaks by the leading functionaries of communist authorities. More so, the authorities go to the extent of supporting these kulaks as they consider them to be revolutionary in character and they follow the path shown by the authorities.

3. According to Spano, the communist authorities have given too much freedom to the national bourgeoisie in the towns. Because of this capitalism in private enterprises has a fertile soil for its further growth. The workers in the private enterprises have no power and are completely subjugated to the entrepreneur.

4. The working class in the new China is in the pig pen and the authorities pay no attention. The authorities think that the class of workers in China is insufficiently aware and has no understanding of the policies of the party. Therefore, for the time being it should not be engaged in active construction. No work is being done for engaging the workers in the party and for its ideological education.

5. The students mainly belong to the Guomindang. According to Spano among the 12 thousand students in the people’s political courses in Peking, 9 thousand are ex supporters of the Guomindang and the head of these courses, who is a member of the CC CPC, considers this to be a completely normal situation. A few days ago he had the opportunity to conduct a 6 hour long conversation with Bo Yi-Bo, the secretary of the North Eastern bureau of the CPC. Com. Spano tried to draw his attention to the dangers of restoration of capitalism in the towns and the countryside, to the underestimating of the role of the workers and other shortcomings. Despite Com. Spano’s reference to Lenin’s guidelines the answer that Bo Yi-Bo gave was as follows:
a) The rise of the new kulak in the countryside poses no threat as the kulak got its riches from the new authorities and is fully supportive of it. According to Bo Yi-Bo this new kulak class is revolutionary minded.

b) No class struggle should be allowed in the privately owned enterprises in New China and the businessmen need to be allowed to function freely.

The worker class in China is illiterate and immature and therefore, for the time being, it should not be roped in to class struggle. It is a question of the future and the party needs to engage the workers only in 5 years time from now. To Spano’s reminder that Lenin had given certain guidelines on this question Bo Yi-bo replied that in the specific conditions of China these guidelines are unsuitable. This is a question of the future.

Spano then stated that in any case it is a matter of expediency to, at least in some measure, allow the workers to have some control over their private employer, in not allowing extreme exploitation by the employer and enforcing of the labour norms. Bo Yi-Bo replied that none of this is presently feasible. When Spano asked how, in that case, one can instil in the workers an appetite for political action and how to put limits on the businessmen, Bo Yi-Bo replied that this needs to be done not through workers but through the Labour Bureau created by the government.

Spano’s conversation with Li Li-san, the labour minister, proceeded in approximately the same spirit as that with Bo Yi-Bo. Li-san was also of the view that in the present conditions the worker class is still immature and thus it should not be involved in any sort of class struggle.

According to Li Li-san the party will closely engage with the working class after a period of 3-5 years.

Spano then stated that underestimation of the possibility of a quick restoration of capitalism and the role of the workers is characteristic of the majority of the leading functionaries of China with whom he has had discussions. Spano underlined the fact that, in his knowledge, only 1 or 2 workers are in the CC CPC.

Stressing on the need for full confidentiality, Spano said that, in his opinion, Mao Tse Tung has been given too much authority and everything in China is done on his directives. If at any point in the discussions with the Chinese comrades one points out one or the other shortcomings, the Chinese comrades reply that they are acting on the orders of Mao Tse Tung. According to Com. Spano this aspect gives rise to serious apprehensions for the following reasons.

Com. Stalin is not only the leader of the Soviet people, but also of the working peoples of all countries. This is understandable as Com. Stalin gives to his own people as well as the working peoples of all the countries absolutely clear and precise perspective of further development. All the directions and forecasts of Com. Stalin are proven true in life.

The exact opposite is true for Mao Tse Tung – he is the leader of the Chinese people but he does not give any clear and precise directions to his own people and above all to the working class. Therefore, concentration of full authority in his hands gives rise to grave concerns.

Com. Spano thinks that the following conclusions must be made in light of the above mentioned:

Positive aspects of the present situation.

1) Guomindang has lost all authority amongst all sections of the Chinese people. People have forgotten the Guomindang and no one wants to talk about it.

2) The young people of China are admirable. They actively participated in the struggle against the Guomindang and are well inclined towards the revolution. One can observe an hunger among the Chinese people and  specially the youth for education and advancing their knowledge.

3) The communists have created and trained a reliable military force.

Negative aspects

1) There is a real danger of complete restoration of capitalism both in the towns and the countryside.

2) The number of workers in the communist party is very small. No attention is paid to the working class and it is not involved in the active political life. This too is disconcerting. Among the leadership nationalist sentiments can be observed. Many of them think that China has traversed a long revolutionary path, is a huge country and can in future too follow its own course and not the path traversed by the western countries and even Russia. Spano illustrated this feature in the following way: in the conversation Bo Yi-bo said that Mao Tse Tung has gone to Moscow. Com. Spano openly expressed his joy. At this Bo Yi-bo responded coldly and observed that he does not harbour any special feeling of joy when it comes to this visit.

3) Though the young people do show a sympathetic attitude towards the Soviet Union, there are also facts that show that the youth is also nationalistic and is also of the view that they can follow their own path different from the one taken by the USSR. Among a large section of the youth a view is prevalent that Soviet Union is an imperialist country as it has entered into an unequal treaty with China having captured Port Arthur and the Far East.

4) The leadership of the CPC does not understand the impending danger of restoration of capitalism and is not carrying out any sort of struggle to avoid such an eventuality.

Spano in conclusion declared the following:

Objectively all the 5 elements, as in Yugoslavia, are present in new China for embarking on a wrong course. The only difference being that in Yugoslavia the leadership consists of bandits and traitors while the CPC is headed by honest revolutionaries, but people with no understanding of the complexity of the situation and the possibility of the restoration of capitalism in China.

After he made his conclusions, Spano said that the situation in China arouses serious concern and fears and, therefore, he would like to know my opinion – how correct are his conclusions and whether or not he is mistaken. Spano said he desires to know this so that he may give correct information to Com. Togliatti. Further he also wanted to know which, in my opinion, are the desirable and necessary measures that need to be taken, so as to thwart China embarking on a wrong path.

To the questions posed by Spano I replied that some of the information provided by him about the underestimation of the role of the workers and the attitude towards it, and complacency on part of certain Chinese comrades is known to us from our conversations with the Chinese functionaries. Some of the concrete facts provided by Spano, particularly pertaining to southern China, are new for us. Further, I stated that the last plenum of the CC CPC has charted out a lot of desirable concrete measures regarding strengthening the work in the cities and part of these measures are already being implemented.

I stated my personal opinion that I do not for time being see any particularly serious danger that China would take to the capitalist path.

Further I told Spano that regular help should be extended to the Chinese comrades and expressed my personal opinion that the conversations that Spano had with Bo Yi-bo and Li Li-san did apparently make an appropriate impression though they do not agree with his conclusions. (Spano immediately confirmed this.) Then I pointed out, as probably Spano is aware, the Chinese comrades are asking us to help them by sending teachers for organising education. In case such a decision is taken it will be of great help for our Chinese comrades.

Com. Spano said that my opinion is correct and added that the biggest help in overcoming the shortcomings will come from the visit of Mao Tse Tung to Moscow and his discussions there with Com. Stalin.

At the end of the conversation, Com. Spano told me that in about two weeks time he would be leaving for home and so he requests me to issue him a visa allowing travel through the Soviet Union. Spano then showed me his passport with a Soviet visa for entry into China. I asked Com. Spano which visa does he want – entry only visa or a transit visa for further travel through Soviet Union. I also asked him about the duration of his stay in Moscow. Com. Spano replied that he will go home directly from Moscow but how long will be the duration of his stay in Moscow he doesn’t know as that will depend on Com. Suslov and others in Moscow. I promised Com. Spano that the visa will be issued very soon.

This was the end of the conversation and Spano thanked me and declared that the conversation must remain confidential and I on my part assured of the same.

The whole conversation took about 3 hours. Frolovskaya, the French interpreter was present and did the interpretation.

Charge d’Affaires of the USSR in the PRC, P. Shibayev

Forwarded to:

Comrades Stalin,
Molotov,
Beria,
Mikoyan,
Kaganovich,
Bulganin.

Source: RGASPI, F. 82. Op. 2, D. 1241, LL. 146-158.

Translated from the Russian by Tahir Asghar.

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